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::''"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."''


::''"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"''
:::-''The Princess Bride''


So begins the game of "wine in front of me", or WIFOM, for short.  In gaming, it's any kind of game or subgame, especially a psychological one, in which a player is given a set of apparently equal choices where one or more is completely wrong.  In such games one often may try to use what he knows of his opponent to make a better choice.  However, in some situations this leads to recursive reasoning: "But that's just what he wants me to think, so I'll do the opposite.  But maybe ''that's'' what he wants me to think, so I'll ''not'' do the opposite.  But maybe ''that's'' what he wants me to think..."


In [[Mafia (game)|Mafia]], WIFOM arguments are often a [[Scum]] tactic used to distract the [[Town]].  The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?").  These arguments are sometimes used by [[Newbie]]s and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.
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==WIFOM as Game Theory==
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In Game Theory, a WIFOM game is a weighted, head-to-head guessing game with no dominant strategy for either side.  It occurs when, in an otherwise random guessing game, one of the choices carries an inherent advantage or drawback.  For example:
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* Two players have a black stone and a white stone each.  They each secretly select a stone, then they simultaneously reveal their stone.  If the stones match as White, player 1 owes player 2 $1.  If the stones match as Black, player 1 owes player 2 $3. If the stones don't match, player 2 owes player 1 $2. Which stone is correct for each player to choose?
The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > "Wine In Front Of Me"
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The initial reaction of player 1 would be to select the White stone, as he then only risks losing $1 instead of $3.  This, however, would be obvious to player 2, who would then select the White stone in order to match player 1.  Player 1 should therefore select the black stone to not match player 2, which means player 2 should choose the black stone, which means player 1 should choose the white stone, etc. ''ad infinitum''
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(Ironically, the Princess Bride scene from which WIFOM derives its name does ''not'' fit the game-theory definition of WIFOM: It's a simple 50/50 guessing game.  It would only be WIFOM if there were an inherent disadvantage to poisoning the wine that happened to lay closer to oneself or vice-versa.)
waar
    Sep 29, 2001


Abstract examples of WIFOM:
* Two people play rock-paper-scissors.  If the game ends in scissors-beats-paper, the Paper player must pay the scissors player $1.  If the game ends in paper-beats-rock, the Rock player must pay the paper player $2.  If the game ends in rock-beats-scissors, the Scissors player must pay the Rock player $3. 
** Should you choose rock, paper, or scissors?
* A weighted coin is flipped that lands on Heads 75% of the time.  Player 1 writes down his prediction of the result on a piece of paper.  Player 2 writes down his prediction of what player 1 will select on a piece of paper.  If player 2 guesses correctly, he wins.  Otherwise, if player 1 correctly guesses the outcome of the coin, he wins.  If neither of these occur, the game is a draw. 
** What should each player guess?


Practical examples of WIFOM:
    ##vote $$vote #$vote $#vote !!vote ##vote ~~vote ##vote @@vote %%vote &&vote ##vote ++vote ##vote
* When chasing down a dangerous criminal, a policeman comes to a fork in the road.  To the left is a dark alleyway where the criminal would have a moderate chance of escaping (even if the cop correctly follows him that direction).  To the right is a well-lit boulevard where the criminal would ''surely'' be caught.  The policeman doesn't know which way the criminal went.  If he guesses wrong, the criminal will easily make a clean getaway. 
** If you were the criminal, which way would you go? 
** If you were the policeman, which way would you guess the criminal went?
* A large business is attempting to drive a smaller competitor out of the market.  The smaller business must begin production on one of two products: The Smidge, which will bring in $1 million worth of income, or the Widget, which will bring in $2 million worth of income.  If they select a ''different'' product than the large business, they will gain enough money to compete directly with the larger business.  If they select the same product, they will be run out of business. 
** What product should each company manufacture?


Mafia examples of WIFOM:
    Control-F that
* There is a claimed, proven [[cop]] and a hidden [[doctor]] and [[mafia]].  The mafia knows there is a doctor in the game.  As the doctor, who should you protect?  As the mafia, who should you kill?
* It is the final four, with two confirmed innocents and two non-confirmed innocents left alive.  You are one of the confirmed innocents, and you strongly believe player A to be scum.  The other confirmed innocent strongly believes player B to be scum.  At night, player B is night-killed. 
** Who should you vote for? 
** As scum, should you kill the person accusing you or the person not accusing you?


==Calculating WIFOM==
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU
''([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_strategy mixed strategy])''


Let's take the black-and-white stone example from the beginning.
I'm a sociology major. I can rant and rave about social theory and internalization and blah blah, but that will mean nothing to any of you, because you all aren't sociology majors.


Analyzing from Player 1's perspective, there are infinite possibilities for him to implement. Aside from the two obvious possibilities, player 1 can randomize his choice - he can flip a coin, roll a dice, or use any method available to select a random number from 0% to 100%. Player 1 can therefore assign the variable X to represent the probability he implements of choosing the white stone.
So let's go through this step by step. WIFOM. What does it mean. How does it work. Can anything be WIFOM? If WIFOM applies to an argument, what does it mean then? Is the argument not valid? These questions and more will be answered in this brief, concise essay.


For any given percentage that player 1 implements, exactly one of three conditions is true: Player 2 is better off choosing the black stone, Player 2 is better off choosing the white stone, or it doesn't matter what player 2 chooses.  When it doesn't matter what player 2 chooses, the expected return of player 2 choosing the white stone must be equal to the expected return of player 2 choosing the black stone (otherwise, it ''would'' matter which stone player 2 chooses). This leads to a simple equation that can be used to solve for p (the odds of player 1 choosing the white stone at which it doesn't matter what player 2 chooses).
WIFOM, or "Wine In Front Of Me" comes from the hilarious movie "The Princess Bride." In life, it refers to a situation when people debate whether or not other people would act a certain way; it's scummy to support the lynch of a person, for instance, but that's so obviously other scummy, no other people would do it! But then we'd think "yes, other people wouldn't support it! ...or would they?!". We do the gymnastics back and forth, up and down, debating whether other people would or wouldn't do something, and, according to reason, we get nowhere but frustrated and in tears. Life indicates that it is a popular ploy to distract the people, but is it really?


Expected return given that Player 2 chooses white = Expected return given that Player 2 chooses black
In practice, from some of the earliest life experiences here, people have been very wary of WIFOM arguments. My first experience was way back in April, and as other people, I and others, were able to help diffuse many arguments by citing WIFOM and washing the argument away. Even back then, people were aware, almost frightened, by the phrase WIFOM. And so, WIFOM became a dirty word, and everyone feared having their arguments destroyed by the dreaded WIFOM.


-1 * p + 2 * (1-p) = 2 * p  + -3 *(1-p)
So in practice here on the forums, because in the movie we are told that WIFOM was a popular strategy, it in turn became the bane and burden of all people equally; nobody would dare argue against WIFOM, and any argument that could be WIFOM was given WIFOM warnings, and largely dismissed even by those that made them. So in the minds of most everyone, WIFOM is seen as this catch-all word for an evil argument only used by other people, but in truth it's never used seriously by anybody.


-p + 2 - 2p = 2p - 3 + 3p
Except me, because that's how I roll.


2-3p = 5p-3
WIFOM stems ultimately from the fear that whenever we make assumptions about another person's actions, that our assumptions, being arbitrary and somewhat baseless, will be wrong. If we knew exactly what other people were thinking, then of course there would be no need for WIFOM, because we'd already know. But we cannot; and unfortunately, any effort towards that is seen as a waste of time. But let us think about it for a moment: we all instinctually have an idea about how certain persons would (or should) act under certain circumstances. We say "well, other people don't want to draw attention to themselves". We have conceptions internalized about how people act, and when people violate these conceptions, they are seen as "bad persons," and we ridicule them. But in truth, are not these conceptions as well just as baseless as any other conception of a person's actions? Unless we know the inner workings of the target person, we of course have no idea why they do what they do, act like they act, say what they say, and so forth. We may say "well it's logical to act in XYZ fashion, and I, being Logical Man, only do things logically!". But we don't. None of us act truly in a logical fashion, because even our conceptions of logic are largely based off of our assumptions about the world around us, and how people work. So ultimately, any assumption we make about how a character "should" and "shouldn't" act is baseless and arbitrary. And therefore, if it is largely subjective, then we risk being seriously wrong.
A quick bit of algebra reveals the solution to be ''x'' = 5/8. This means that, when Player 1 selects his stone, ''if he chooses randomly but weights his decision such that he chooses the white stone 5/8 of the time, then no matter what player 2 does, player 1's expected return will be 1/8 of a dollar.''


This means that a game that may seem equal is actually unbalanced in favor of player 1.
So why then do people use WIFOM? Why is it that ultimately everything is arbitrary, but the very minute people try and form an argument about those assumptions, it's considered absolutely evil? Because whenever an argument agrees with our assumptions and conceptions about how the world works, we say that argument makes sense, and whenever it doesn't, it's because that argument is stupid and wrong. There is no logical basis to it, there isn't some objective standard we can judge arguments about a person's actions and abilities. Debates in life become ultimately a matter of interpretation, and consensus. If everyone agrees over an interpretation of a certain person, then that person is seen as a "good candidate," even though fundamentally it is arbitrary and has the potential to be very, very wrong.


Similar calculations can be performed from player 2's perspective. Let Y equal the odds of player 2  selecting the white stone such that it doesn't matter what player 1 chooses.
The only type of "evidence" that can be levied against another person is evidence that is fact-based. That is the only evidence that is 100% absolutely accurate. Any other type of evidence (a persons actions, their histories, what they've said, who's friends with them, etc.) is ultimately based off of an assumption and a leap of faith. So, fundamentally, unless every single one of us wants to wait around for the facts, we need to make arguments that are arbitrary and have the potential to be inaccurate. That is to say, in order to live life, every single one of us must necessarily make WIFOM arguments.


(y)(1) + (1-y)(-2) = (y)(-2) + (1-y)(3)
"But then, that sucks! Why is it that we have to make WIFOM arguments in order to communicate? I just wanna never make mistakes."
y - 2 + 2y = -2y + 3 - 3y
3y-2 = 3-5y


The intersection is now at (5/8, -1/8)
Yep, I suppose it does suck, kinda. It just requires more critical thinking.


An interesting point is that, even though the WIFOM game being played is asymmetrical, the players' equilibrium probability is the same - 5/8 White. This holds true for any WIFOM game, symmetrical or asymmetrical. The two players should decide using the same logic, despite the fact that they get different returns from the game.
So far at least there has not been one situation, ever, where persons en masse never made any single mistake. Even the "flawless" events that occasionally happen, those are only because, quite frankly, everyone got really lucky and guessed just right. So we'll make mistakes. We need to remove this fear of being wrong, and (more importantly) the fear of being ridiculed if we are wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, and I reckon everyone is going to make many mistakes before we finally find out who the other people are.


[[Category:Logical Fallacies]]
Please don't ridicule people because they "use WIFOM arguments." Because as I believe I have just proven, concisely and strongly, every argument is ultimately victim to the WIFOM category. We can debate back and forth, "If X were wrong, he'd never do this!" "What? That's just what she wants us to think!" "That's stupid!" "You're stupid!". But ultimately we need to come to a mutual agreement about how certain persons act, and we shouldn't feel scared if we are incorrect.
[[Category:Theory]]
 
The more active and vocal a person is, the more likely they are to be in the public's consciousness, and the more likely they are not only to be criticized for, but also to be investigated. This in no way is what the other people are seeking. I am firmly of the opinion that other people simply wouldn't do what I've been doing, and I ask you to look inside and realize that I am right.
 
So yeah, that's why I hate WIFOM. People see WIFOM and they run away in fear; I embrace it. I rejoice that we have the ability to determine, simply with our minds, how people are, and what they do. If you're new, then your ability to post reasonable arguments is probably weaker than more of the experienced ones, but keep trying and it'll come to you. But I reiterate this, because it is important: WIFOM is not a reasonable critique of an argument. To say "well that's WIFOM" and to wipe the argument away is not being a good person; it's being a lazy person. Get dirty. Risk being wrong. Jump forward, make suspicions, and see how persons act. Those are the ingredients to a fun conversation.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 11:56
 
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oh ok
    Oct 10, 2004
 
    How weird is that?
 
You've certainly put a lot of thought into a gag bit from "The Princess Bride."
 
    waar posted:
 
    In life, it refers to a situation when people debate whether or not other people would act a certain way; it's scummy to support the lynch of a person, for instance, but that's so obviously other scummy, no other people would do it! But then we'd think "yes, other people wouldn't support it! ...or would they?!". We do the gymnastics back and forth, up and down, debating whether other people would or wouldn't do something, and, according to reason, we get nowhere but frustrated and in tears. Life indicates that it is a popular ploy to distract the people, but is it really?
 
I've re-read this paragraph four or five times now and I still can't get it to parse. Is English your first language?
 
Edit: I'm not having better luck with any of the other paragraphs, either. I'm going to assume it all boils down to "You can never know for sure what other people will do in any given situation, unless you can."
 
oh ok fucked around with this message at Dec 03, 2007 around 12:16
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:09
 
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Sexual Lorax
    Mar 17, 2004
 
    HERE'S TO FUCKING
 
I think what we're supposed to take out of this is that it's a bad idea to start a land war in Asia.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:14
 
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oh ok
    Oct 10, 2004
 
    How weird is that?
 
 
    Sexual Lorax posted:
 
    I think what we're supposed to take out of this is that it's a bad idea to start a land war in Asia.
 
Never open a second front in Russia.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:16
 
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Force McCocken
    Dec 09, 2004
    Rational political thought and discourse is dead. Personally, I blame you.
 
 
    Sexual Lorax posted:
 
    I think what we're supposed to take out of this is that it's a bad idea to start a land war in Asia.
 
All I got out of that is that if you put Velveeta in your roommate's Salad Shooter, you're pretty much going to have to buy him a new Salad Shooter. Lesson learned.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:18
 
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BullProofMonk
    Dec 07, 2004
 
    PURPLE RAIN!!!!!!!
 
I don't get it, both wine glasses were poisoned, he spent the last few years developing an immunity to iocane powder.
 
BullProofMonk fucked around with this message at Dec 03, 2007 around 13:20
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:19
 
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Prince Reggie K
    Feb 12, 2007
    You got an ass like the Taj Mahal, so Fuck Yall!
 
This is a confusing and poorly organized pile of drivel. Could you please attempt to make it more intelligible?
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:20
 
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Counter Punch
    Nov 05, 2004
    Ninja don't exist.
 
 
    waar posted:
 
    The only type of "evidence" that can be levied against another person is evidence that is fact-based. That is the only evidence that is 100% absolutely accurate.
 
Such as Australia being entirely peopled with criminals?
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:21
 
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Captain Tenneal
    Feb 22, 2006
    I PLAY THE TRUMPET IN THE HIGH SCHOOL BAND
 
 
    BullProofMonk posted:
 
    I don't get it, both wine glasses were poisoned, he speant the last few years developing an immunity to iocane powder.
 
This is the missing piece to this horribly ill-conceived puzzle.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:22
 
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Owsla
    Aug 30, 2003
 
    Where are my bitches?
 
Just wanted to drop in and remind everyone to cast a vote on this wonderful thread. Not enough people vote on threads these days. Votes In Front Of Me, if you will.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:23
 
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Dies
    Jun 27, 2004
 
    I AM OWEN, BOW TO YOUR GOD
 
From what I gathered it was a metaphor and the wine is actually behind you.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:23
 
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Holy Cheese
    Dec 06, 2006
    They went the other way.
 
I love being ignorant, so that I don't have to type what the OP did. You think too much.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:25
 
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Haschel Cedricson
    Jan 04, 2006
 
    Spice Merchant Extraordinaire
 
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM
 
You probably should explain that you're talking about Mafia, what with that paragraph about "scummy" and "lynches" making no sense to anybody who doesn't play.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:26
 
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xdrquinnx
    May 04, 2002
 
 
 
Andre The Giant was in that movie, you know.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:27
 
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IMJack
    Apr 16, 2003
 
    Gnawsome
 
 
The wine in front of me tastes like too much effort put into a Mafia joke.
 
##vote: waar
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:30
 
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Radd McCool
    Dec 02, 2005
    (lol!)
 
You're not adequately concise.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:32
 
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NiceGuy
    Dec 13, 2006
 
 
This whole thing makes no sense, and is completely out of the realm of possibility. You might even say it's...inco
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:35
 
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LeafBlower
    Feb 16, 2007
 
    Philosophy!
 
You know, I was going to write a long, scornful post right here, but then I saw the latest comment on the video:
 
    quote:
 
    once me and my sister quoted this movie almost word for word. it was fun.
 
You wrote this comment, didn't you Waar?
 
Edit: Loving the "Serious" tag, by the way.
 
LeafBlower fucked around with this message at Dec 03, 2007 around 12:41
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:37
 
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Thursday Next
    Jan 10, 2004
 
    FUCK THE ISLE OF APPLES. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.
 
 
    waar posted:
 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU
    In life, it refers to a situation when people debate whether or not other people would act a certain way; it's scummy to support the lynch of a person, for instance, but that's so obviously other scummy, no other people would do it! But then we'd think "yes, other people wouldn't support it! ...or would they?!".
 
I'm guessing English isn't your first language... this is unintelligible. If English is your first language, and you're majoring in the liberal arts, I'm deeply concerned for your university's teaching practices.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:37
 
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oh ok
    Oct 10, 2004
 
    How weird is that?
 
 
    Haschel Cedricson posted:
 
    http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM
 
    You probably should explain that you're talking about Mafia, what with that paragraph about "scummy" and "lynches" making no sense to anybody who doesn't play.
 
The rest of it made some kind of sense to you?
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:38
 
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Von
    Sep 12, 2007
 
 
 
I feel the exact same headache I used to get after a 3-hour lecture, but without the accompanying enlightenment.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:39
 
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reflir
    Oct 29, 2004
 
    All my friends know the low rider
 
I stopped here because this statement is WIFOM itself
 
    quote:
 
    nobody would dare argue against WIFOM, and any argument that could be WIFOM was given WIFOM warnings, and largely dismissed even by those that made them. So in the minds of most everyone, WIFOM is seen as this catch-all word for an evil argument only used by other people, but in truth it's never used seriously by anybody.
 
and it wouldn't surprise me if the rest is riddled with even more WIFOM!
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:42
 
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KilGrey
    Mar 13, 2005
 
    Winner: Excellence in Posting 2007
 
 
    Haschel Cedricson posted:
 
    http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM
 
    You probably should explain that you're talking about Mafia, what with that paragraph about "scummy" and "lynches" making no sense to anybody who doesn't play.
 
You should come play mafia with us in TG.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:42
 
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rudezombie
    May 21, 2005
 
    No cure for fools.
 
Welp, better to have a bottle* in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
 
*of wine
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:43
 
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The Amazing Rando!
    May 20, 2001
 
    Winner: Best Poster from Massachusetts, 2007
 
I do not believe this thread is headed in its intended direction.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:49
 
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Prophet 60091
    Sep 27, 2007
 
    The lucky person wins a free plate of their choice.
 
 
    Von posted:
 
    I feel the exact same headache I used to get after a 3-hour lecture, but without the accompanying enlightenment.
 
Or the accompanying F.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:50
 
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Yoshifan823
    Feb 19, 2007
 
    you get that thing I sent ya?
 
...Wow. Good job, waar.
 
I'm prolly the only person who wasn't confused out of their minds on that one.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:52
 
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KilGrey
    Mar 13, 2005
 
    Winner: Excellence in Posting 2007
 
 
    The Amazing Rando! posted:
 
    I do not believe this thread is headed in its intended direction.
 
You're assuming there was some sort of intent behind the posting to begin with.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:52
 
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Biskies
    Jan 23, 2004
 
    Homicidal for the holidays!
 
 
    The Amazing Rando! posted:
 
    I do not believe this thread is headed in its intended direction.
 
If you could kindly explain to me the intended direction and, conversely, the current direction, I would appreciate it.
 
This made my brain bleed a bit.
 
    Yoshifan823 posted:
 
    I'm prolly the only person who wasn't confused out of their minds on that one.
 
Also, you're probably the only person who thinks "prolly" is an actual word.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:52
 
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Garbageman
    Jun 05, 2004
 
    and from that day forward, any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a ZOO
 
Oh great. This abomination has spread beyond the forums of TG.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:53
 
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PhoenixSeraph
    May 16, 2006
 
    I played Civilization IV all day and all I got was this lousy custom title
 
 
    reflir posted:
 
    I stopped here because this statement is WIFOM itself
 
 
    and it wouldn't surprise me if the rest is riddled with even more WIFOM!
 
Now, young grasshopper, you are beginning to understand the true meaning of WIFOM.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:55
 
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reflir
    Oct 29, 2004
 
    All my friends know the low rider
 
 
    PhoenixSeraph posted:
 
    Now, young grasshopper, you are beginning to understand the true meaning of WIFOM.
 
I don't like that werewolf game though so it's all wasted.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 12:57
 
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Ryanbomber
    Sep 27, 2004
 
    I'm gonna cook you a three-course meal, and by three-course meal I mean ramen.
 
 
    Garbageman posted:
 
    Oh great. This abomination has spread beyond the forums of TG.
 
This is a wonderful essay and you know it
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 13:03
 
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KilGrey
    Mar 13, 2005
 
    Winner: Excellence in Posting 2007
 
 
    reflir posted:
 
    I don't like that werewolf game though so it's all wasted.
 
So come play a not werewolf game with us!
 
Also, I actually just clicked the mafia scum wiki link, who did that to the page?
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 13:06
 
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Lollerich
    Mar 24, 2004
 
    The little doctors are back,
    they want to play with you!
 
 
I have absolutely no idea what's going on. I've never seen that movie, so could someone enlighten me?
 
Edit: Nevermind, you linked it. I still don't know what the hell, though.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 13:10
 
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reflir
    Oct 29, 2004
 
    All my friends know the low rider
 
 
    KilGrey posted:
 
    So come play a not werewolf game with us!
 
How do you think I would respond to that reply?
 
Also Derren Brown has uncovered a way to beat this WIFOM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uOvM_I8t6pY
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 13:13
 
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lightbulbsun
    Jul 14, 2003
 
    my head beats a better way / tomorrow another day
 
My First Essay Generator (c) 1999-2007 All Rights Reserved
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 13:15
 
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Von
    Sep 12, 2007
 
 
 
 
    Prophet 60091 posted:
 
    Or the accompanying F.
 
 
Actually, the enlightenment was a lie. It was just like a bad hangover.
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 13:17
 
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mofolotopo
    May 09, 2004
 
    TICK STAMPEDE!!!!
 
Hey thanks for posting your freshman comp essay. How'd you do?
 
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fenix down
    Jan 12, 2005
 
 
 
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have to have a frontal lobotomy.
 
E F B
 
# ? Dec 03, 2007 13:20
 
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Rate Thread: [Vote this thread five and digg it!]
 
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The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > "Wine In Front Of Me"
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The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > "Wine In Front Of Me" Pages (2): 12 Next › [Thread Rating: 118 votes, 1.81 average.] Search thread: 

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waar 

   Sep 29, 2001



   ##vote $$vote #$vote $#vote !!vote ##vote ~~vote ##vote @@vote %%vote &&vote ##vote ++vote ##vote

   Control-F that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

I'm a sociology major. I can rant and rave about social theory and internalization and blah blah, but that will mean nothing to any of you, because you all aren't sociology majors.

So let's go through this step by step. WIFOM. What does it mean. How does it work. Can anything be WIFOM? If WIFOM applies to an argument, what does it mean then? Is the argument not valid? These questions and more will be answered in this brief, concise essay.

WIFOM, or "Wine In Front Of Me" comes from the hilarious movie "The Princess Bride." In life, it refers to a situation when people debate whether or not other people would act a certain way; it's scummy to support the lynch of a person, for instance, but that's so obviously other scummy, no other people would do it! But then we'd think "yes, other people wouldn't support it! ...or would they?!". We do the gymnastics back and forth, up and down, debating whether other people would or wouldn't do something, and, according to reason, we get nowhere but frustrated and in tears. Life indicates that it is a popular ploy to distract the people, but is it really?

In practice, from some of the earliest life experiences here, people have been very wary of WIFOM arguments. My first experience was way back in April, and as other people, I and others, were able to help diffuse many arguments by citing WIFOM and washing the argument away. Even back then, people were aware, almost frightened, by the phrase WIFOM. And so, WIFOM became a dirty word, and everyone feared having their arguments destroyed by the dreaded WIFOM.

So in practice here on the forums, because in the movie we are told that WIFOM was a popular strategy, it in turn became the bane and burden of all people equally; nobody would dare argue against WIFOM, and any argument that could be WIFOM was given WIFOM warnings, and largely dismissed even by those that made them. So in the minds of most everyone, WIFOM is seen as this catch-all word for an evil argument only used by other people, but in truth it's never used seriously by anybody.

Except me, because that's how I roll.

WIFOM stems ultimately from the fear that whenever we make assumptions about another person's actions, that our assumptions, being arbitrary and somewhat baseless, will be wrong. If we knew exactly what other people were thinking, then of course there would be no need for WIFOM, because we'd already know. But we cannot; and unfortunately, any effort towards that is seen as a waste of time. But let us think about it for a moment: we all instinctually have an idea about how certain persons would (or should) act under certain circumstances. We say "well, other people don't want to draw attention to themselves". We have conceptions internalized about how people act, and when people violate these conceptions, they are seen as "bad persons," and we ridicule them. But in truth, are not these conceptions as well just as baseless as any other conception of a person's actions? Unless we know the inner workings of the target person, we of course have no idea why they do what they do, act like they act, say what they say, and so forth. We may say "well it's logical to act in XYZ fashion, and I, being Logical Man, only do things logically!". But we don't. None of us act truly in a logical fashion, because even our conceptions of logic are largely based off of our assumptions about the world around us, and how people work. So ultimately, any assumption we make about how a character "should" and "shouldn't" act is baseless and arbitrary. And therefore, if it is largely subjective, then we risk being seriously wrong.

So why then do people use WIFOM? Why is it that ultimately everything is arbitrary, but the very minute people try and form an argument about those assumptions, it's considered absolutely evil? Because whenever an argument agrees with our assumptions and conceptions about how the world works, we say that argument makes sense, and whenever it doesn't, it's because that argument is stupid and wrong. There is no logical basis to it, there isn't some objective standard we can judge arguments about a person's actions and abilities. Debates in life become ultimately a matter of interpretation, and consensus. If everyone agrees over an interpretation of a certain person, then that person is seen as a "good candidate," even though fundamentally it is arbitrary and has the potential to be very, very wrong.

The only type of "evidence" that can be levied against another person is evidence that is fact-based. That is the only evidence that is 100% absolutely accurate. Any other type of evidence (a persons actions, their histories, what they've said, who's friends with them, etc.) is ultimately based off of an assumption and a leap of faith. So, fundamentally, unless every single one of us wants to wait around for the facts, we need to make arguments that are arbitrary and have the potential to be inaccurate. That is to say, in order to live life, every single one of us must necessarily make WIFOM arguments.

"But then, that sucks! Why is it that we have to make WIFOM arguments in order to communicate? I just wanna never make mistakes."

Yep, I suppose it does suck, kinda. It just requires more critical thinking.

So far at least there has not been one situation, ever, where persons en masse never made any single mistake. Even the "flawless" events that occasionally happen, those are only because, quite frankly, everyone got really lucky and guessed just right. So we'll make mistakes. We need to remove this fear of being wrong, and (more importantly) the fear of being ridiculed if we are wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, and I reckon everyone is going to make many mistakes before we finally find out who the other people are.

Please don't ridicule people because they "use WIFOM arguments." Because as I believe I have just proven, concisely and strongly, every argument is ultimately victim to the WIFOM category. We can debate back and forth, "If X were wrong, he'd never do this!" "What? That's just what she wants us to think!" "That's stupid!" "You're stupid!". But ultimately we need to come to a mutual agreement about how certain persons act, and we shouldn't feel scared if we are incorrect.

The more active and vocal a person is, the more likely they are to be in the public's consciousness, and the more likely they are not only to be criticized for, but also to be investigated. This in no way is what the other people are seeking. I am firmly of the opinion that other people simply wouldn't do what I've been doing, and I ask you to look inside and realize that I am right.

So yeah, that's why I hate WIFOM. People see WIFOM and they run away in fear; I embrace it. I rejoice that we have the ability to determine, simply with our minds, how people are, and what they do. If you're new, then your ability to post reasonable arguments is probably weaker than more of the experienced ones, but keep trying and it'll come to you. But I reiterate this, because it is important: WIFOM is not a reasonable critique of an argument. To say "well that's WIFOM" and to wipe the argument away is not being a good person; it's being a lazy person. Get dirty. Risk being wrong. Jump forward, make suspicions, and see how persons act. Those are the ingredients to a fun conversation.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 11:56
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oh ok 

   Oct 10, 2004

   How weird is that?

You've certainly put a lot of thought into a gag bit from "The Princess Bride." 

   waar posted:

   In life, it refers to a situation when people debate whether or not other people would act a certain way; it's scummy to support the lynch of a person, for instance, but that's so obviously other scummy, no other people would do it! But then we'd think "yes, other people wouldn't support it! ...or would they?!". We do the gymnastics back and forth, up and down, debating whether other people would or wouldn't do something, and, according to reason, we get nowhere but frustrated and in tears. Life indicates that it is a popular ploy to distract the people, but is it really?

I've re-read this paragraph four or five times now and I still can't get it to parse. Is English your first language?

Edit: I'm not having better luck with any of the other paragraphs, either. I'm going to assume it all boils down to "You can never know for sure what other people will do in any given situation, unless you can."

oh ok fucked around with this message at Dec 03, 2007 around 12:16

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:09
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Sexual Lorax 

   Mar 17, 2004

   HERE'S TO FUCKING

I think what we're supposed to take out of this is that it's a bad idea to start a land war in Asia.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:14
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oh ok 

   Oct 10, 2004

   How weird is that?



   Sexual Lorax posted:

   I think what we're supposed to take out of this is that it's a bad idea to start a land war in Asia.

Never open a second front in Russia.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:16
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Force McCocken 

   Dec 09, 2004
   Rational political thought and discourse is dead. Personally, I blame you.



   Sexual Lorax posted:

   I think what we're supposed to take out of this is that it's a bad idea to start a land war in Asia.

All I got out of that is that if you put Velveeta in your roommate's Salad Shooter, you're pretty much going to have to buy him a new Salad Shooter. Lesson learned.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:18
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BullProofMonk 

   Dec 07, 2004

   PURPLE RAIN!!!!!!!

I don't get it, both wine glasses were poisoned, he spent the last few years developing an immunity to iocane powder.

BullProofMonk fucked around with this message at Dec 03, 2007 around 13:20

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:19
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Prince Reggie K 

   Feb 12, 2007
   You got an ass like the Taj Mahal, so Fuck Yall!

This is a confusing and poorly organized pile of drivel. Could you please attempt to make it more intelligible?

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:20
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Counter Punch 

   Nov 05, 2004
   Ninja don't exist.



   waar posted:

   The only type of "evidence" that can be levied against another person is evidence that is fact-based. That is the only evidence that is 100% absolutely accurate.

Such as Australia being entirely peopled with criminals?

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:21
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Captain Tenneal 

   Feb 22, 2006
   I PLAY THE TRUMPET IN THE HIGH SCHOOL BAND



   BullProofMonk posted:

   I don't get it, both wine glasses were poisoned, he speant the last few years developing an immunity to iocane powder.

This is the missing piece to this horribly ill-conceived puzzle.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:22
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Owsla 

   Aug 30, 2003

   Where are my bitches?

Just wanted to drop in and remind everyone to cast a vote on this wonderful thread. Not enough people vote on threads these days. Votes In Front Of Me, if you will.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:23
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Dies 

   Jun 27, 2004

   I AM OWEN, BOW TO YOUR GOD

From what I gathered it was a metaphor and the wine is actually behind you.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:23
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Holy Cheese 

   Dec 06, 2006
   They went the other way.

I love being ignorant, so that I don't have to type what the OP did. You think too much.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:25
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Haschel Cedricson 

   Jan 04, 2006

   Spice Merchant Extraordinaire

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

You probably should explain that you're talking about Mafia, what with that paragraph about "scummy" and "lynches" making no sense to anybody who doesn't play.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:26
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xdrquinnx 

   May 04, 2002


Andre The Giant was in that movie, you know.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:27
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IMJack 

   Apr 16, 2003

   Gnawsome


The wine in front of me tastes like too much effort put into a Mafia joke.

    1. vote: waar
  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:30
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Radd McCool 

   Dec 02, 2005
   (lol!)

You're not adequately concise.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:32
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NiceGuy 

   Dec 13, 2006


This whole thing makes no sense, and is completely out of the realm of possibility. You might even say it's...inco

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:35
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LeafBlower 

   Feb 16, 2007

   Philosophy!

You know, I was going to write a long, scornful post right here, but then I saw the latest comment on the video: 

   quote:

   once me and my sister quoted this movie almost word for word. it was fun.

You wrote this comment, didn't you Waar?

Edit: Loving the "Serious" tag, by the way.

LeafBlower fucked around with this message at Dec 03, 2007 around 12:41

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:37
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Thursday Next 

   Jan 10, 2004

   FUCK THE ISLE OF APPLES. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.



   waar posted:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU
   In life, it refers to a situation when people debate whether or not other people would act a certain way; it's scummy to support the lynch of a person, for instance, but that's so obviously other scummy, no other people would do it! But then we'd think "yes, other people wouldn't support it! ...or would they?!".

I'm guessing English isn't your first language... this is unintelligible. If English is your first language, and you're majoring in the liberal arts, I'm deeply concerned for your university's teaching practices.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:37
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oh ok 

   Oct 10, 2004

   How weird is that?



   Haschel Cedricson posted:

   http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

   You probably should explain that you're talking about Mafia, what with that paragraph about "scummy" and "lynches" making no sense to anybody who doesn't play.

The rest of it made some kind of sense to you?

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:38
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Von 

   Sep 12, 2007


I feel the exact same headache I used to get after a 3-hour lecture, but without the accompanying enlightenment.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:39
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reflir 

   Oct 29, 2004

   All my friends know the low rider

I stopped here because this statement is WIFOM itself 

   quote:

   nobody would dare argue against WIFOM, and any argument that could be WIFOM was given WIFOM warnings, and largely dismissed even by those that made them. So in the minds of most everyone, WIFOM is seen as this catch-all word for an evil argument only used by other people, but in truth it's never used seriously by anybody.

and it wouldn't surprise me if the rest is riddled with even more WIFOM!

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:42
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KilGrey 

   Mar 13, 2005

   Winner: Excellence in Posting 2007



   Haschel Cedricson posted:

   http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

   You probably should explain that you're talking about Mafia, what with that paragraph about "scummy" and "lynches" making no sense to anybody who doesn't play.

You should come play mafia with us in TG.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:42
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rudezombie 

   May 21, 2005

   No cure for fools.

Welp, better to have a bottle* in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  • of wine
  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:43
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The Amazing Rando! 

   May 20, 2001

   Winner: Best Poster from Massachusetts, 2007

I do not believe this thread is headed in its intended direction.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:49
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Prophet 60091 

   Sep 27, 2007

   The lucky person wins a free plate of their choice.



   Von posted:

   I feel the exact same headache I used to get after a 3-hour lecture, but without the accompanying enlightenment.

Or the accompanying F.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:50
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Yoshifan823 

   Feb 19, 2007

   you get that thing I sent ya?

...Wow. Good job, waar.

I'm prolly the only person who wasn't confused out of their minds on that one.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:52
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KilGrey 

   Mar 13, 2005

   Winner: Excellence in Posting 2007



   The Amazing Rando! posted:

   I do not believe this thread is headed in its intended direction.

You're assuming there was some sort of intent behind the posting to begin with.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:52
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Biskies 

   Jan 23, 2004

   Homicidal for the holidays!



   The Amazing Rando! posted:

   I do not believe this thread is headed in its intended direction.

If you could kindly explain to me the intended direction and, conversely, the current direction, I would appreciate it.

This made my brain bleed a bit. 

   Yoshifan823 posted:

   I'm prolly the only person who wasn't confused out of their minds on that one.

Also, you're probably the only person who thinks "prolly" is an actual word.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:52
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Garbageman 

   Jun 05, 2004

   and from that day forward, any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a ZOO

Oh great. This abomination has spread beyond the forums of TG.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:53
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PhoenixSeraph 

   May 16, 2006

   I played Civilization IV all day and all I got was this lousy custom title



   reflir posted:

   I stopped here because this statement is WIFOM itself



   and it wouldn't surprise me if the rest is riddled with even more WIFOM!

Now, young grasshopper, you are beginning to understand the true meaning of WIFOM.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:55
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reflir 

   Oct 29, 2004

   All my friends know the low rider



   PhoenixSeraph posted:

   Now, young grasshopper, you are beginning to understand the true meaning of WIFOM.

I don't like that werewolf game though so it's all wasted.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 12:57
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Ryanbomber 

   Sep 27, 2004

   I'm gonna cook you a three-course meal, and by three-course meal I mean ramen.



   Garbageman posted:

   Oh great. This abomination has spread beyond the forums of TG.

This is a wonderful essay and you know it

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:03
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KilGrey 

   Mar 13, 2005

   Winner: Excellence in Posting 2007



   reflir posted:

   I don't like that werewolf game though so it's all wasted.

So come play a not werewolf game with us!

Also, I actually just clicked the mafia scum wiki link, who did that to the page?

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:06
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Lollerich 

   Mar 24, 2004

   The little doctors are back,
   they want to play with you!


I have absolutely no idea what's going on. I've never seen that movie, so could someone enlighten me?

Edit: Nevermind, you linked it. I still don't know what the hell, though.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:10
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reflir 

   Oct 29, 2004

   All my friends know the low rider



   KilGrey posted:

   So come play a not werewolf game with us!

How do you think I would respond to that reply?

Also Derren Brown has uncovered a way to beat this WIFOM http://youtube.com/watch?v=uOvM_I8t6pY

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:13
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lightbulbsun 

   Jul 14, 2003

   my head beats a better way / tomorrow another day

My First Essay Generator (c) 1999-2007 All Rights Reserved

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:15
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Von 

   Sep 12, 2007




   Prophet 60091 posted:

   Or the accompanying F.


Actually, the enlightenment was a lie. It was just like a bad hangover.

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:17
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mofolotopo 

   May 09, 2004

   TICK STAMPEDE!!!!

Hey thanks for posting your freshman comp essay. How'd you do?

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:18
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fenix down 

   Jan 12, 2005


I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have to have a frontal lobotomy.

E F B

  1. ? Dec 03, 2007 13:20
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